Ever wonder what those little tags with numbers on them in the wine shop actually mean? Who determines the difference between an 89 and a 90? What's the scale like? How do they conduct these tastings? In this episode we critique the critics, talking about the various scoring systems -- what they mean, what to look for, and why, ultimately, they are kind of like noise to your decision-making process.After shout-outs and a listener question on punts (in which M.C. Ice gives a crazy explanation that you can't miss), the indentation at the bottom of a wine bottle, we get to the main topic:
- We cover the various systems of Robert Parker/the Wine Advocate, Wine Spectator, Wine Enthusiast, Decanter, Jancis Robinson, and the New York Times and San Francisco Chronicle. We quote from their websites about their scoring methodologies and then give our impressions of them.
- We talk about alternate methods of evaluating a wine and a way to revolt against the system...although we'd like your thoughts on it too!
If you like the podcast, please review it on iTunes, drop a comment below, or join the awesome conversation on Facebook (Wine For Normal People page) and Twitter @normalwine!
And if you've got a question you want us to answer, post it on any of those places and we'll include it on the show!
Thanks for listening! We can't wait to hear from you!
Oh, and per the podcast... if you were wondering what DBS means -- it's really quite low class, but it is means douchebag supreme. Terrible. We know.
Podcast music: "Café connection" by morgantj / CC BY 3.0, ©2009 - Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution (3.0) Map: Licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported, 2.5 Generic, 2.0 Generic and 1.0 Generic license
Thanks for listening! We can't wait to hear from you!
Oh, and per the podcast... if you were wondering what DBS means -- it's really quite low class, but it is means douchebag supreme. Terrible. We know.
Podcast music: "Café connection" by morgantj / CC BY 3.0, ©2009 - Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution (3.0) Map: Licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported, 2.5 Generic, 2.0 Generic and 1.0 Generic license
So I've finally caught up with older episodes after finding your blog a couple of months ago, and thought it was high-time I contributed to this here wine conversation.
ReplyDeleteA quick comment on the whole conversation about punts: though the sediment is ultimately caught up in the shoulder of the bottle, the punt helps to aggregate the sediment into a small, dense ring. Since the sediment is clumped together, it is more likely to catch in the neck of the bottle and stay out of your glass. Most decanters also have punts for the same reason.
Also, I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on your use of the punt as a grip for pouring. Let's face it, there is no practical advantage for pouring a wine by shoving your thumb in it's punt; it's a purely aesthetic practice, and I find it a bit pretentious. Like most things that carry on from antiquity, punts exist for a number of reasons (some are aesthetic), and to argue any one reason is an exercise in futility.
Sadly, as you have continued on with your podcasts, you seem to have become increasingly opinionated on certain topics. I enjoy hearing another's opinion, but in more recent casts, I've heard more griping about something being "crap" and less about why exactly that might be.
With all due respect, your anti-snobbery campaign has become snobby in and of itself: this hipster, anti-mainstream approach is portrayed as the new "correct" way of enjoying wine. It's as if someone who takes a more classic approach is, by virtue of enjoying wine in the same way an old-school afficionado would, you are a snob, and therefore below you and your revolutionary, unconventional ways. I know a couple of friends that you might describe as "wine snobs." Truth is, they're as humble as anyone could be, they just find enjoyment in the grandeur and sophistication in wine drinking. To them, it enhances the experience, but people like to label them based on that fact alone. I've heard snobbier things come out of your blog than anything I've ever heard them say.
In short, please continue doing a wonderful job teaching us about wine in an "average Joe" sort of way, but please stop demonizing certain wine drinkers because they drink wine differently than you do and it makes you uncomfortable. Many, if not most of these so called "snobs" are just as excited to share their wine knowledge with others as you are, and it's not their fault that you incorrectly passed judgement on them.
Sincerely, a slightly disappointed follower.
Hi Ladut,
ReplyDeleteThanks for writing. You've put a lot out there, so I'll do my best to address it all.
On the punts, I see what you're saying and it makes perfect sense, however if you look at every major wine reference book, written by people who have devoted their lives to the study of the stuff, the answer is always the same: there is no real understanding of why wine bottles have punts. The best explanations include stabilization or grip (in Champagne this is important during riddling, where they slowly turn the bottles upside down to decrease the sediment). If you want to read up a little more on it, look in the Oxford Enclyclopedia of Wine, Hugh Johnson's "History of Wine," Karen MacNeill's "Wine Bible" and I'm sure you could find more. It's a quirky thing in wine and there is no real understanding of why it's used except that it makes bottles look bigger and that's great for marketing. As I said in the podcast -- there is no real explanation. Sorry you disagree on that point.
On your comments regarding a change in the podcast and blog, I'm sorry you no longer are enjoying it. I'm very far from a "hipster" and also very far from a snob, so I can't really relate to your criticisms.
To address what I do think you're saying, I actually don't think there is a correct way to enjoy wine, and I'm not very anti-mainstream (probably the opposite since normal wine people ARE the mainstream) but I take exception, and always have, to people making others feel bad about themselves by being condescending on any topic -- from economics to politics to art to wine, all of which I've studied extensively.
I derive a lot of pleasure out of wine and all it's "grandeur" but I don't do it at the expense of other people, which is how I think "wine snobs" function and why so many people don't like them.
I guess I'd like some examples of how you think things have changed in the blog. I have ALWAYS been opinionated (if you read the blog, you know I have a section called "Drink or Sink" and that, in and of itself is a bold, opinionated statement). From the first post, I have presented things as I see them -- if I think something is bad, I say so. If I think it's great, I say that too. My blog and podcast have never been completely objective, although I always try to educate using the best facts possible on regions and styles.
And on your final point, I don't think I "demonize" wine snobs, but after years in this business I am happy to be someone who can share my knowledge without making other people feel bad about wine, a subject that many are turned off from because of the superior attitudes of a certain group of wine lovers and experts "out there." Most of the listeners, readers, and fans really like the approach because it's something that makes them comfortable and more interested in and excited to explore the topic, regardless of whether or not they agree with my assessments. I pass judgment on a lot of things and, like any radio show or blog, it's up to the listeners to decide if they agree or disagree.
Thanks again for your comments.
Best regards,
Elizabeth
Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteThank you for doing this podcast, I have been listening since the beginning and look forward to each and every episode.
This one I kind of put off for awhile because I don't really listen to wine critics. I feel that people may have a tendency to become too dependent on the critics scores and less likely to try something new, that is unless it has a rating. Why risk trying something new and foreign that may prove to be disappointing when you can stick with the critic and get something more guaranteed? However, I do appreciate what critics have done to spreading wine drinking to the general public, like Starbucks did for coffee drinking in this country.
This podcast sparked a big conversation between my wife and I about our perceived complaints, appreciations and ideas about wine critics and their scores. The biggest thought that came from our conversation was: why is it that only individual wines are scored but wineries as a whole are not? Would it work to rate a winery and skip the individual wines in a similar fashion to the Michelin system over in France for restaurants? They rate the whole restaurants quality not its individual plates to give the consumer an idea of what to expect. People don't skip out on a restaurant for lack of individual scores for each dish, they go because the restaurant as a whole has been given good marks. I feel like this type of system, although still with its flaws, would be simpler for the consumer and would still allow for their own exploration by choosing one of the many wines produced by the winery.
Well this was just a thought I wanted to share. Thanks for the podcast and keep up the good work!
Brett
Hey Brett,
ReplyDeleteI was going through old email and realized that I never replied to your thoughtful comment.
I think your idea about scoring a whole winery is a great idea. It would give people a benchmark as to whether or not it's worth exploring further. There is certainly a style that each winery has and this type of system could help classify and arrange them so people could find others that are similar. The biggest problem with this system would be the huge variability sometimes between "dishes" if we use the restaurant analogy. Some wineries do some things so well and are TERRIBLE at others. I'm often astounded at the discrepancy. I guess it's like a restaurant review though -- definitely could be included in the notes.
Great idea -- maybe we should start doing this!
Take care and thanks for listening,
Elizabeth